Siobhan McHale is a culture transformer with a track record of making workplaces better. She’s helped thousands of leaders create more agile and productive workplaces and written the best-selling book, The Insider’s Guide to Culture Change.
What we can learn from Siobhan today:
- What Culture really is
- The importance of looking at Culture through a commercial lens
- The value of “Reframing Culture” for people, their roles and organization
- Collective patterns of relatedness with Culture
- The four elements of the Culture descriptor
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Read the Transcript below: (Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services_)
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: The Barrett Values Centre has completed some extensive research on the impact of culture and values around COVID-19. The Centre sought to answer questions that are useful and helping supporting leaders in their stakeholders address the challenges that they may face in interviewing 2,500, people worldwide, including 300 C-Suite executives. The pandemic has been referred to as the “great pause”, and it appears to have forced individuals and organizations to stop, look internally and consider what they may need to do to operate in the future and how their approach may also need to shift now. There have been global crises before, but never one that has affected so many people, and so directly in all our lifetime. The research compared personal values, pre COVID-19 to that we are experiencing now. And we’ve seen four new values emerge in the top priority during the pandemic, they are: making a difference, adaptability wellbeing and caring.
The values of continuous learning and family were already present pre COVID, but have since increased in their priority. There has been a real shift in values, moving towards more care and wellbeing amidst the crisis. Some interesting statistics that the report has shared is: wellbeing shifted from its position of 26 to 5, due to the importance placed on people during COVID-19. A traditional process focus has been replaced by focus on people, agility and communication. During COVID-19 results, orientation as an organizational value shifted from its number 2, position down to number 25 and achievement shifted from 6 to 50. Which leaves a question in leaders of how do you then drive results in parallel with wellbeing and people focus to maintain that positive culture? Not surprisingly, values such as agility had moved up from 43 to 8 and Digital connectivity had moved up from 50 to 2 and employee health had moved from 61 to now 5. One stark statement in the research was that employees are placing 15 times more emphasis than their leaders on the need for continued direction and communication going forward.
So as you look to thrive, following this pandemic, first take a look at your current state. Don’t make assumptions about the values and culture of your organizations, but really evaluate them and learn from what the real landscape looks and feels like in your organization today. If we fail to really diagnosis the situation effectively now, it could mean that we deploy the wrong strategy, the wrong approach and the wrong energy and our next wave of planning. That has been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any insights, information or stories, please get in touch.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Our special guest on today’s show is Siobhan McHale. She is a culture transformer, and selected as a member of Thinkers50 radar for tackling the big issues of our time with rigor and energy, and she’s also the author of the bestselling book, The Insider’s Guide to Culture Change, Siobhan welcome to the show.
Siobhan McHale: Thank you, Steve. Great to be with you today.
Steve Rush: So before we get into the theme of culture and culture change, it would be really interesting just to explore how you become so fascinated by the theme of culture. Tell us a bit, about how you arrived here.
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I suppose I started off studying psychology and as my classmates were revering down a path to become clinical psychologists, I was really much more interested in the world of work and in particular, what makes people perform at their best and their highest, rather than maybe looking at people who were more struggling with perhaps mental health issues in a clinical setting. I was much more interested in becoming an organizational psychologist, so that really started me on the path to exploring a workplace culture in particular.
Steve Rush: During your time in your management-consulting career, you travelled extensively across the world and you saw lots of different cultures. What was the, maybe the one or two things that you identified at that time, that really kind of drew you into the whole premise of culture and what culture is?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I travelled and worked across four continents, and during that time, I advised hundreds of leaders about how to create more productive and constructive work environments. But I work into some places where there were toxic cultures that really drained the energy from the organization and led to bismel customer service. And then on the other side of the spectrum, I work into some organizations that had amazing cultures that really delighted customers and had very engaged workforces, so I started to over a period of 30 years, started to research what made workplaces deliver, grow and adapt more easily. And really that is the subject of my book. How do you create workplaces that can deliver, grow and adapt?
Steve Rush: And it is really interesting in my experience of culture, you can almost walk into an organization and you might not be able to physically see it, but you can get that vibe. You can feel it very, very quickly, whether it is good or, less good, right?
Siobhan McHale: Absolutely.
Steve Rush: What causes that?
Siobhan McHale: I think culture is, one of those commonly used terms, but it really is the ways of relating. The ways of operating within the organization and it is not so much about, what happens at the individual behavioural level. It is more about how the organization functions at a collective level and sometimes those ways of relating are functional and sometimes they are quite destructive. And as I said, they can leak value, financial value included from the organization dropped by corrosive dropped.
Steve Rush: And I wonder how organizations apply a different lens versus I have a business strategy over here, here is my financials; here is my strategy, lots of hard and fast measures. But as you just rightly said, this could leak huge amounts of financial leakage. Organizations can lose a significant amount of revenue by just having the wrong culture and I wonder what causes organizations to look at culture differently to maybe other parts or tenants of that business?
Siobhan McHale: Yes, a great question. It is one of the big myths about, what is culture? And how we framed culture has been largely in many organizations in terms of employee experience. So we talk about culture as if it’s just about employee satisfaction, employee engagement, inclusion, diversity. And of course, they’re really important to aspects of culture, but they’re not the I aspects. Culture relates to every part of your business, including how you manufacture, how you design, how you manufacture, how you sell, how you serve as your products. And this is the area that I think we’ve got to look at culture through a much more commercial lens, because you really need to have the right culture in order to deliver on your strategy. I think that is the question for management teams. What culture do we need to enable and fast track our business strategy?
Steve Rush: Is there something there about organizations and indeed leaders within an organization, or having a different perspective of what culture is?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I often say culture is one of the most talked about, but least understood concepts and workplaces today, and you need to have a common frame and a common language. And I think many leaders have been taught that in order to shape the culture, you simply document the values and the behaviours that you want to see, and you roll out those values and behaviour statements, and then you get a change in the culture. Now, we all know that’s nonsense, but leaders haven’t been given any other tools or many other tools in order to create the right culture that will deliver on their strategic intent and produce the financial results that they’re looking for. So we’ve got to get leaders away from this notion that it’s just about values and behaviours, and start to see that culture is about the collective patterns of relatedness that sit at the more systemic or collective level,
Steve Rush: Right, so over the 30 years of research that you have undertaken and extensive study around culture. Is there a simplified way in which you describe what culture is?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I would say, the ways of relating in the organization and it is the distinction I think, between the dancers and the dance. So the dancers are the behaviours but the dance is the ways of operating. The way that the organization functions and often we focusing just on the behaviours, but we don’t, you know, the dancers, but we don’t necessarily see the dance. And those are the patterns are what I call the agreements between the parts.
Steve Rush: That is a lovely way of describing it. I actually quite like that.
Siobhan McHale I did some work at the ANZ bank, which is one of the big four banks in Australia. And this was in the early two thousands, when the bank was really getting a lot of bad press about how it’s customer satisfaction and its closure of rural branches and the CEO at the time, John McFarlane knew he had to turn around the organization and create better returns to shareholders and increase customer satisfaction. But when I walked into the bank, I could see that there was a passion that was very dysfunctional, that was keeping it stuck in the old ways and delivering very poor customer satisfaction. And the head office was taking up the role of order giver and the branches, the 700 branches were taking up the role of order takers, so the head office was giving the orders and saying, do this, do that.
And the branches were just stepping into the role of the order taker and each part both the head office and the branches were blaming each other for the poor customer satisfaction. And this pattern of blame was going around and round and actually leaking energy from the organization. So we had to see that passion first, before we could start to shift the culture and we put in a new operating model, we reframe the role of the head office from order giver to support provider to the branches. And we reframe the role of the 700 branches from order taker to service provider, to the customer and that new operating model and the reframing change the pattern of blame to a different passion between head office and branches, which was, we worked together to meet the needs of our customers.
Steve Rush: And sometimes it is just as simple as reframing, isn’t it for people in the mix of that moment, so that they can see things in a different way and get a different behaviour, I guess?
Siobhan McHale: Exactly reframing is a very powerful tool that is often overlooked. Sometimes when we think about change, we think we have to change people’s personality, but I often think that is the hard way, you know, personalities very hard wired and what right do we have to ask people to change who they are? And instead we can reframe, reframe people’s role, reframe the role of a department, reframe the role of the team. You can even reframe the role of a whole organization, and get it pivoting, get it moving very quickly in a different direction.
Steve Rush: Now I am sure, you won’t mind me mentioning this, but your work aim at. Not only was it instrumental in changing the fortunes, a failing Australian bank to becoming a number one performer globally at one stage, but also that John Kotter or Professor John Kotter. Which many of our listeners will be familiar with as one of the four runners in the world of leading change. Actually, contacted you and is using this as part of the Harvard Business MBA work, am I right?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, so yeah, I was sitting at my desk one day when reception patched through a call from Professor John Kotter. And you can imagine I almost fell off my chair because I’d read all of his books and he was still is a guru in the space and he was my idol. And yeah, he was looking for a global case studies for successful transformation and successful culture change. And he selected the one that I’d written up as the case study that he was teaching Harvard MBA students about. So teaching people how you manage change and how you accelerate change more quickly. So, yeah, that was quite a pivotal moment for me because what it taught me was that my work could be beneficial beyond the bounds of the organization that I was working in. And that was one of the key moments when I also had this realization that I could share the findings of my research with a broader audience which also led me to, write the book.
Steve Rush: Awesome, and therefore The Insider’s Guide was born?
Siobhan McHale: Yes, yes, indeed. The Insider’s Guide to Culture Change.
Steve Rush: So, we are getting to the book in a little bit more detail in the moment, and there is a couple of things in there that when I read that were really insightful. I would love to explore those with you, but before we do, what is the reason that most leaders often struggle to get culture, right?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I think you know, it does relate back to how leaders see their role. And one of the things that I’ve noticed over the past 30 years is leaders tend to frame their role in terms of their running the business. So their operational role, their role is to run the business, but they don’t necessarily see or take up their culture change role or that culture role. They don’t necessarily see themselves as the chief culture officer and often in organizations, culture has been delegated to HR to, take up the mantle. And whenever that occurs in my experience, it’s problematic because then culture becomes something that HR has to fix, and line managers tend to take a step back in those organizations and then culture doesn’t get embedded truly in my experience.
Steve Rush: It is a neat reframe as well. Having that chief culture officer, I wonder how many organizations actually have one of these days? I am not familiar with many, if any.
Siobhan McHale: Yes. Well, I think the chief culture officer needs to be the CEO and HR has to reframe its role to be a critical leader, but in an enabling, function. So providing the tools, the support, the advice, the processes in order to embed the culture that is going to deliver on the organization’s strategic imperatives and going to meet the business goals. And I think that’s the work that HR has to do to start seeing its role, not just around employee experience, but how can you help managers at all levels to create a culture that might be a growth oriented or performance driven culture or commercial culture, customer driven culture, quality culture, and innovative culture. These are old things that managers are calling out for. How do I have an, a more adaptive culture in these disruptive times? And what I’m saying to HR folk is where is your toolkit for that? How can you walk up to those questions and have solutions for managers and leaders who are looking for that type of help?
Steve Rush: Got it, so your book now, The Insider’s Guide to Culture Change is available and it is doing really, really well. and I’m delighted to see that is the case for you, so well done.
Siobhan McHale: Thank you.
Steve Rush: Tell us a little bit about the inspiration for the book and what it was that caused you to finally get all that research together and put pen to paper.
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I really did want to, my parents did teach us their children to keep learning and to make a positive difference in the world. And one of the things I noticed was that there were a lot of people writing about culture, who had a brilliant lens. They were outsiders though, so they were either consultants or academics or journalists, and they were writing about workplace culture, a fantastic lens, but I had a different lens and that was an insider lens. So I had been the executive in charge of transformation in a series of multinational organizations, as well as being an external outsider. I have been a management consultant, but when I became an insider as the executive in charge of change, I just had a different experience, and I started to test and really see what tools can help accelerate culture change and what tools don’t and I thought, well, where is that voice? Where is that voice of the insider? And it wasn’t really there. And I had to stop asking and start picking up, you know, my responsibility in sharing what I knew rather than looking for somebody else to do that. So I decided, yeah, it needs to be told. These stories, these tools need to be shared and yeah. Decided to step into that role,
Steve Rush: Brilliant stuff. There was one thing that really intrigued me when I read the book, it was around activating the culture disruptor from an inside out perspective. Tell us a little bit about that?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, so the culture disruptor is my four steps solution to creating the right culture for your business and it really is. It starts with step number one, which is you must diagnose what is really going on in your organization and in the external environment, too many people stepping to culture change in the wrong place. They start thinking about what type of culture do we need, and that is the wrong place to start. You need to start back at what is going on in the business environment and what are the external forces? What are the deeply embedded and often hidden patterns that are running us that we really maybe need to say goodbye to in the future. Sometimes the patterns that served you very well in the past and not the same patterns that are going to serve you in the future. So yeah, it is a four-step process to get to and continue to create a culture that is going to meet your business needs, starting with them analysing what is going on for you within your workplace, as well as the external environment.
The second step then is to reframe. Reframing is a very powerful tool, and you can reframe the role of the different parts of your business in order to create faster change with less noise. So it gives a lot of examples of how you do that, reframing in the book. And then the third step is to break the pattern. It sounds easy, but it is much harder than it sounds. And there’s different tools to break some patterns that are may no longer be serving you. And then the fourth one is to consolidate your gains and this is where a lot of leadership teams and management teams, they lose puff. They run out of steam on the journey. So how do you keep going? How do you keep your foot on the change accelerator over the longer term?
Steve Rush: And momentum is probably the biggest key here. Isn’t it? Because it is like rolling a big Boulder up a Hill.
Siobhan McHale: It is.
Steve Rush: You get so far and so far, and the energy starts to wane. What would be the one thing if I was a leader listening to this, that you’d say that would be helpful for me to maintain that momentum on any culture change?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I would say your leadership team form a, you know, give them the role of leading the change effort, the culture change effort, and have regular meetings with your management or leadership team. About how is the change going? I talk about seeing yourselves as captains of a ship, and instead of spending all of your time on deck. You need to get back onto the bridge and have a look at what is going on in relation to our change journey. How we tracking? What are some of the things that we are experiencing? We might have put something into the organization. How did that go? Often leaders do interventions, but they don’t check how it went. You know, what was the reaction? What was the response? What was the feedback? Do we need to ahead in a different direction? So I would say having that management team and meeting regularly and diagnosing how’s the change going and how do we need to move and adjust on the journey?
Steve Rush: It is a constant evaluation as well. Isn’t it? It’s just not one of those things you can set off and run and then think, right. Okay. We will keep going. It is a constant evaluation to pivot and to change and to modify, right?
Siobhan McHale: Absolutely, many leaders have been taught. You just spend months defining the values of the organization. You produce a glossy document and some posters; you roll out some workshops and that is it, and that isn’t it. As we know, seldom works, so we’ve got to try a different way. And that’s why I think it’s important for leaders to understand that they have a culture role and giving them the tools to take up this culture role at all levels. So it is not just senior executives, managers. At all levels need to be able to step into their role, to shape the type of culture that is going to deliver the business results that they need.
Steve Rush: You just spiked a thought in my thinking actually, because you are absolutely right. Culture, is not about a certain level of hierarchy leading this. This is a leadership responsibility for everybody in whatever role they do in the organization. I wonder how many organizations actually feature culture and the role that we have to play in leading culture as part of induction programs.
Siobhan McHale: I think it is really a great point. I think most organizations would talk to their new employees about their organizational values, but I doubt that many would frame people’s role as a cultural leader. I think it is becoming more common, but you know, your role is to lead to the culture and bring it to life every single day. That is a very powerful reframe compared to here are the values and here is your mug or mouse pad with the values on it.
Steve Rush: Right.
Siobhan McHale: And that was one of the keys at ANZ bank. Every person was told, and one of our five values was that you will lead and inspire each other. So the reframe there was leadership will not come from the top. Each of you will lead and inspire each other and that was a powerful mobilizer on our change journey. That reframe for the 32,000 employees.
Steve Rush: I love that. I think that is really powerful, really powerful. So in your book, you also talk about there being a number of big myths about workplace culture. What is the biggest myth that you encountered?
Siobhan McHale: I think there are many, many big myths, but I think one of the biggest ones is that culture is somehow fixed and a one size fits all. So there is this myth that, you know, we have to keep the same culture as we have always had. It is like a mountain or a rock, whereas culture needs to adapt, needs to keep on being something that you examine and that you refine as needed. And it’s not a one size fits all, you know, there’s this thing, Oh, you must, we almost aspire to X culture. Well, you know, what about if you are in a military department, you might want to create a discipline culture to ensure that soldiers and civilians are safe in war torn regions. Whereas if you are a leader in a marketing company, you might want to create an innovative culture. So you can really impress and wow clients with your innovative ideas, so no two organizations will need a want the exact same culture, so it’s not a one-size fits all state.
Steve Rush: I think you are right, super stuff. The one thing that intrigued me quite often, when I have conversations with my clients and their teams around culture and setting them up for success is the whole principle about how do we measure it. So there is lots of judicial outcomes that we can look forward in terms of behaviours and results, but how would you suggest is the best or the most effective way of measuring culture change?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah. Culture itself is, you know, I think if you go back to the ANZ example, what you’ve got to be able to see in your diagnosis of your culture are the passions of relating between the parts. So you’ve got to be able to see, for example, that the head office is in role of order giver and the branches are enrolled of order taker. And there’s a pattern of blame between them. Now, that is not something you can measure. You’ve got to be able to go in there and diagnose that. If you don’t get that diagnostic, right, the risk is that you go in and you say, Oh, we’ve got for customer satisfaction. Let’s put in some training courses so that the branch staff know how to deliver better customer service to our customers. And that intervention could actually fuel the passion of blame in the organization, as you can imagine, because the branch staff might say, well, they don’t even trust us to provide service.
Steve Rush: Sure.
Siobhan McHale: And it is not our fault. It is the head office. We don’t have the authority to make decisions. So that diagnosis is not something that you can measure, but you can measure the outcomes of seeing the pattern and intervening to shift the pattern by for example, a customer satisfaction survey. So if you’re aiming to have a culture of customer centricity, you can measure that by getting feedback from your customers about how they seeing your service, but the diagnostic is different to the outcome of the culture, if you know what I’m saying. The passion you can’t measure as easily, you’ve got to be able to see that and it’s not necessarily something that a survey will tell you,
Steve Rush: Of course and if you don’t get that diagnostic, right, your outcomes and your measures of any kind will be incorrect in the first place,
Siobhan McHale: Correct, Absolutely and many times leaders rush off and they put in interventions that don’t actually create any change. And sometimes it takes them backwards, which was happening at the ANZ. They were doing restructure after restructure, trying to train people and get them to increase the customer satisfaction. And it was having no impact until we went in and did a proper diagnostic.
Steve Rush: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So as part of your journey as well, and becoming renowned now for culture and leading cultural change, you’ve also been a leader of others. My job, as part, this show is to hack into the minds of great leaders. And I’m really keen to get into your leadership thinking now, and to find out what would be some of your top hacks. So tell us, what your top leadership hacks could be Siobhan?
Siobhan McHale: I would say for me, it is don’t try to change somebody as a person. Modify the role, not the person. So for me, I found that that is an amazing way of allowing people to be their true, authentic selves but reframing their role. And I’ve had so many examples of them, just people seeing their role. In one way, for example, I was coaching somebody who was having real problems with their team, and getting people on board and there was just a lot of noise from her team. She drew a map of her role with seeing herself as an individual achiever and achiever rather than, and she was running up the hill on her own rather than galvanizer or mobilizer of her team. So just that awareness that she was involved with individual achiever and she needed to be enrolled of mobilizer shifted her whole way of interacting with her team. So that would be one of my big ones, reframe the roll rather than trying to modify or change the person.
Steve Rush: Fascinating. I have never thought of it that way before, because most people will try and coach cajole, encourage behavioural shift, where actually it might just be a simple reframe of the role. Right?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Which is a lot easier to fix of course, than someone’s behaviours.
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, absolutely and sometimes we, have lots of…another guy, he came to me and he was looking for a job, but he’d been looking for a job for nine months and had cv, that was seven pages long with lots and lots of detail. And I flicked through it and he said, I just can’t get a break Siobhan. And I flipped through it and I said, you know what? You are a problem solver. You are a fixer. He went, yeah, that is everything that I have done in my career. I have fixed problems. I solve problems. Anyway, within three months, he had landed a senior job in a very big organization in Australia. And I didn’t even know about this, but my boss met his boss, two CEOs meeting each other. And she talked about the fact that she just hired this guy as the CFO.
And he said, why did you hire him? She said, oh, he is a problem solver. He is a fixer, just that simple reframe of what he actually did and the value that he brought, allowed him to go into the marketplace and sort of frame his role in a very different way. And it landed him a job so the power of reframing. How you and others see you and your role is incredibly powerful. My other leadership hacks and it is something that we help. We have talked about is don’t rush too quickly to solutions. You know, I see a lot of leaders under a lot of pressure to deliver the results very quickly, take the time to diagnose the underlying issues and the patterns that are of relatedness between the parts. And the other one I would say is don’t delegate your culture to HR to fix. Make sure you and your other leaders are actually leading culture and HR is in its role to enable that to happen with great tools and great solutions, but don’t delegate culture.
Steve Rush: Super advice, thank you. We affectionately call this part of the show Hack to Attack. And this is where we explore with our guests times in their career or their lives, where things haven’t worked out well, perhaps it’s been adversity, but as a result of that, we’re now using that experience as a positive in our life and our work. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah. When I was first, hired as a management consultant in London at Coopers and Lybrand, which is now PricewaterhouseCoopers. I took on board two big assignments at the same time. I was very keen I was ambitious, so I took on board. Work for two different partners and they were both full time jobs. And I went to one of the partners at the time and I said, listen, I’m really in a double bind here because I’ve got two massive assignments. And you know, I don’t think I can deliver both of them. And he said, well, you’ve taken them on board now and you’ve committed. So you’ve got to deliver them and I stayed up for three weeks working, you know, burning the candle at both ends, but I did deliver both of them. And it was a big lesson for me about, you know, you make a commitment and you deliver on that commitment and no matter what it takes. So it was a really big lesson. It was hard one, but it stayed with me until this day. Whatever you promise, you deliver on that promise.
Steve Rush: Sets you up for success.
Siobhan McHale: Yeah, absolutely Steve.
Steve Rush: So Siobhan, if we were able to do a bit of time travel now and you were able to bump into yourself at 21, what would be the best bit of advice you would give Siobhan Then?
Siobhan McHale: At 21, I was still a student in Galway on the West coast of Ireland studying psychology. And I suppose I was wondering at that stage, what would my future look like? And I probably tell myself, don’t be fried, follow your passions, travel the world, and yeah. Pursue your dreams and don’t be afraid of being your true, authentic self in that as well. Just be who you are and follow your passions, follow your dreams. And that’s sort of what I did, but looking back on it, it was probably with some trepidation, I was wondering what’s going to emerge in the future. So don’t be afraid to be your true self and follow your dreams.
Steve Rush: Awesome and of course it’s not time bound to age, is it? And that’s still probably holds true today, right?
Siobhan McHale: Absolutely, same lesson. True, Steve.
Steve Rush: So what is next for you then Siobhan?
Siobhan McHale: And in terms of what is next for me, I mean, I love my job. I’m the head of HR at DuluxGroup and I love my job and I’m also in my role as an educator. So I love being the head of HR at DuluxGroup and I also love being an educator and which is one of the reasons I wrote the book. So I’m leaning into both of those roles and really loving it, Steve,
Steve Rush: And more education and more supporting and helping other people’s thinking, which today has definitely been part of too.
Siobhan McHale: Oh, thank you. I hope that it will help people to create better workplaces, which is always been my passion.
Steve Rush: So from my perspective, I just want to say, I am delighted that you are on the show and thanks ever so much for sharing some of your great insights. If folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about your work. Where is the best place they could find out a bit more?
Siobhan McHale: Yeah I would say LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. And yeah, Siobhan McHale. It is S-I-O-B-H-A-N, Siobhan a very unusual Gaelic name, but yeah, that is the best place to define me, Steve.
Steve Rush: Brilliant and we will make sure we put your LinkedIn profile in our show notes, and we will also put a copy of the link into your book as well. So folks can find it when they’ve listened to you today.
Siobhan McHale: Great, thanks you Steve.
Steve Rush: Siobhan thanks ever so much for taking time out of your busy schedule and speaking to us from the other side of the planet. So our first Australian connection on our show. So thanks ever so much for being part of The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Siobhan McHale: It has been a pleasure.